Woman walks into a clinic after a bad breakup with her husband who wants to have children, while she feels that she cannot handle both a child and her career. She takes off her clothes and puts on a gown and lays back on a table. Thirty minutes later, even tho she is a bit sore, she no longer has to worry about raising a child, for there is no more child; she has nothing but her career left to look forward to. The United States Supreme Court has given her that right to abort her baby all the way up to where it could be considered a partial-birth abortion, claiming it is the woman's right to choose, even against the father's right to raise the child alone.

Woman who is only 3 months pregnant gets gunned down in the street and her assailant is arrested and convicted on two-counts of murder - hers and her unborn child.

When is it considered murder of an unborn child? What actually gives the woman the right to kill her child just because it is inside her womb, while someone else cannot? If a woman has the right to kill her child before it is born and someone else does not, then why should the woman also not have the right to kill her child after it is born?

I am failing to see the common logic behind the woman's right to choose when 1) there is a father who wishes to raise the child and 2) anyone who kills a pregnant woman is convicted on two counts of murder. What is the definition of murder?

This has been a question that has echoed through the decades. But its all in what sombody thinks that makes this definition clear.

I don't get it either Kyouri! It's frustrating to see that even though many young girls have gone out and discovered that sex is sex they seem to have forgotten to use protection. In which at the same time is irresponsible. It is easy for them to find solutions for them instead of taking care of a child they made. It's not uncommon anymore to hear that someone had an abortion. But it's killing a little person you made.

I believe that if the law is justice than the child, who was either killed by a shooter, or killed by the mother should get the same treatment. Jail.

Sorta makes you think about the pledge of alligence. "...and justice to all"

YukariSendou wrote:Sorta makes you think about the pledge of alligence. "...and justice to all"

Amen! Amun! Amon! however one wishes to say it... I could not agree with you more, excellent point!!!

there tends to be lots of controversy with that topic and has led to several court cases, but it all tends to end up being shown that there are times where one thing is right but the other is wrong and vise versa ... which is pretty retarded...

in this case "there is no bright side... only the darkness you wish not to see" qoute by some unknown author(me) xD

*Smiles* Okay... So I brought my laptop to school with me n was on AD when I seen this thread I was at the rock wall... I read them this and asked their opinions... *smirks* This started a big debate on a lot of different views on murder... Some people argued that "it was the girls choice to have the abortion.. n if the father wanted a kid than he could adopt one..." Other said "The girl was a bitch n she should had the baby and let the father raise him/her..." Some people just said.. I agree on abortion... but only with rape victims, that girl choose between her kid and her work... Which is wrong"

Bottom line... Most of the people agreed that unless the situation called for it, as in the mothers life would be at risk, or if it was a rape child... That mother should of spent some time in jail!

This topic brought up A lot of other things.. but Im not sure I should make a new thread or tie them on to here...
1)Assisted Suicide 2)Religious massacres 3) Other things I cant think of...

@ Yukari I agree with you 110%!! I think that abortion is something that should be illegal and if some girl does decide to get an abortion then they should be able to face the consequences. There is no reason, that because some girl made a decision to have sex, knowing the consequences that could come out of it, should she be able to have an abortion.

And as for if the girl was rapped, I still don't think that it should matter, there still should not be an abortion. If, when the girl had the baby and she chose not to keep it, then she cant put it up for adoption. I guess that is just me though. I don't think that any unborn baby should not have a chance. *shrugs*

@MJ you're absolutely right! Instead of killing a child because you want to live life without the responsibility then give up your child for adoption. But you knew the consequences and there you go.

But doesn't this sort of bring us to the stem cell research thing?

We've had so many political debates on capital hill about what type of birth control should be taught in the schools, if any. What do you think the rate of teen pregnancy would be if they discovered that getting an abortion would cost you just as much as leaving your newborn to die in a dumpster or drowning your children in the car you purposefully drove into a lake? Bet if they made abortion illegal, unwanted pregnancy rates would decline immensely, not to mention the economic rebound that would eventually occur. The only possible downside I see is the event of too many unwanted children being put up for adoption in order for the mother to not be imprisoned for murder. But then again, it would be just one more way to cut ties with China, I suppose. *shrugs*

My goodness how did I ever miss this one, the ethical debate of defining murder and abortion and the repercussions that come along with this debate, man I remember this debate back in ethics class oh fun times indeed, I almost got punched by a guy in that class!

Defining what's murder on an individual level is easy since the individual develops their own morals in life and figures out for themselves what is to be believed and what is morally wrong and right. On the other hand though defining murder to a group is a little more difficult because you have such a variance in views, you have the couple that believes life is precious and is born from the time the sperm hits the egg, you have the couple that believes life is beginning at birth the moment the child leaves the womb, and then you have those people that believe life exist somewhere between conception and birth.

Now the ultimate question, the one question that will be the deciding factor of you saying "Man Watari is a good guy" or "Man #$%# Watari, I hate him" Do I believe abortion is murder.... No I do not, I don't believe that abortion is murder in any sense, I believe in the woman's right to terminate the cells that are multiplying inside her body, even if a Father is in the picture. Now, why do I believe this? Because that woman has to carry that baby for 9 months, she has to make sure it's fed and taken care of for 9 months, it's her body and it's ultimately her choice and yes I believe a father doesn't even have that say so because all he has is one night of work then he's on his merry way for the next 9 months.

"But what about Adoption?" Sure you could always go the adoption route, put some child up in a state run home, hoping to be adopted by some loving family and never see the child again, seems like the way to go for someone who doesn't want the kid, but what if 30 years down the road that kid comes looking for answers where you don't want to give them? That would make for one messed up situation if that were to occur (btw that is just one way to look at the scenario, I fully realize there are multiple scenario's when coming to a possible conclusion such as the one above, but I don't feel like writing a novel here) so all in all, yes adoption is a perfectly feasible option if one were to want to take that route.

As for the scenario of double murder for the mother and unborn child I guess I would have to ask the question that in the state in which this murder occurred, what are the Abortion laws there? Was the woman who was gunned down 8.5 months into her pregnancy and state law only allows abortions up to 3 months after conception? Just a question to ponder, that could be a connection there, if state law says abortion is allowed up to 3 months and a mother gets killed and the baby dies at 8.5 months after conception than by state law, that baby can be considered a person, though some states do state that a person being that of being able to breath on it's own, thus drawing first breath, maybe the state was able to prove before dying that the child took a breath? So many scenario's so little information!

Btw if abortion was made illegal, the amount of unwanted pregnancies probably wouldn't go down as much as the amount of illegal abortions and blackmarket abortion practices will go up, so really you have a deciding factor, do you want to risk some teen going into someone basement to get an abortion that can kill them, or do you give them a safe place to go to do it but a place that will try to persuade them against it (many abortion clinics do have pamphlets and videos that a person must watch and read before going through with the abortion.

Wow OK I didn't want to write a book but looks like I did... I'm pretty sure I've given enough fuel to fire someone's rebuttal engine so I'll be interested in seeing who picks apart what in my views

Watari wrote:Btw if abortion was made illegal, the amount of unwanted pregnancies probably wouldn't go down as much as the amount of illegal abortions and blackmarket abortion practices will go up, so really you have a deciding factor, do you want to risk some teen going into someone basement to get an abortion that can kill them, or do you give them a safe place to go to do it but a place that will try to persuade them against it (many abortion clinics do have pamphlets and videos that a person must watch and read before going through with the abortion.

Price we pay when we play. Illegal am illegal no matter how you look at it. You get caught, you pay the price for the crime in my opinion.

Watari wrote:Do I believe abortion is murder.... No I do not, I don't believe that abortion is murder in any sense, I believe in the woman's right to terminate the cells that are multiplying inside her body, even if a Father is in the picture. Now, why do I believe this? Because that woman has to carry that baby for 9 months, she has to make sure it's fed and taken care of for 9 months, it's her body and it's ultimately her choice and yes I believe a father doesn't even have that say so because all he has is one night of work then he's on his merry way for the next 9 months.

Yes, defining 'life' is a philosophical debate more so than a religious one, as it has been around before 'organized' religions. Darwinism believes that life occurs at the moment a single cell amoeba begins to fidget. Most religions believe that it is when the first breath of life (god) is breathed into the child (Catholicism always blew me away on this one with their anti-abortionism). Personally, having been pregnant more than once and given birth with each pregnancy, I know for a personal fact that you 'know' when you are pregnant. There is a little spark that you feel the moment the impregnated egg implants itself to the side of the womb. To me, that is life emerging. Just because it does not yet look like me does not mean that it is any less alive than I am. Of course this could be taken to the realms of does a tree feel anything when it is being chopped down? There is no argument that a fully flowering tree is alive. So this definitely plays into one's own personal standards on how they view life and what stage it becomes important to them.

As for the father having no say, I totally disagree! It is not the male's fault that he does not carry the child for 9 months. It took 2 to make that child so therefore there should be 2 opinions in the matter. A woman should not have the right to tell a would-be and want-to-be father that his feelings, thoughts, emotions, and opinion do not matter, because they do. A woman has the right to tell a man who doesn't want to have a child, 'tough luck buddy, plus guess what? you're also going to financially support your child'. It is giving way too much to the woman who is just as culpable in creating that child as her male counterpart is, the right to make all the final decisions regarding a child. There are many mothers that die on the delivery table and the father is quite capable of raising that child alone, so the old adage that it is just simply maternal thing, isn't fair to the man, either. Now I find this rather funny as Watari is a man without child (that we know of ) and I am a woman with children and we are speaking up for the opposite gender, but given our gender confusion in 2Moons, it's not really surprising.

Watari wrote:As for the scenario of double murder for the mother and unborn child I guess I would have to ask the question that in the state in which this murder occurred, what are the Abortion laws there? Was the woman who was gunned down 8.5 months into her pregnancy and state law only allows abortions up to 3 months after conception? Just a question to ponder, that could be a connection there, if state law says abortion is allowed up to 3 months and a mother gets killed and the baby dies at 8.5 months after conception than by state law, that baby can be considered a person, though some states do state that a person being that of being able to breath on it's own, thus drawing first breath, maybe the state was able to prove before dying that the child took a breath? So many scenario's so little information!

*nods* Yes, a state's law governing the abortion limit in what trimester the fetus is, is very important here. However, in my state, it doesn't matter. There is no limit on it. Just because a woman is 'able' to have gotten an abortion within the first 3 months, does not mean that if her fetus is killed by another human during that first trimester that the killer gets off... it's still infanticide. Again, it goes back to the wishes of the mother - if she decides to keep the child then any wrong-doing toward that child by another is a crime. So again I ask... why is it not a crime for her, especially if the father wishes to keep 'his' child? It is not just her egg that is creating that child, heck, she doesn't even determine the gender of the baby. By the way, the majority of pregnancies do nothing more than warp a woman's body for a whole 5 months of her pregnancy. If she really doesn't want the child, give it up for adoption or give it to the father and begin to realize how it feels to be required to support a child like a man is forced to when 'he' doesn't want the child. Women want equal rights? Well here's a good place to start.

You know many people disagree with my reasoning on this topic and that's fine, everyone has their own views when it comes to abortion and I can accept and respect that, not everyone will see eye to eye with me. I do not have children, nor do I really care to have children, many would say well don't have sex... well... yea.... about that... that's just not happening, the ultimate result of sex is a child, I realize this but if I do get a woman pregnant and she wants to abort the child then I will not interfer with that decision because ultimately her body, her decision, if she wanted to have that child, I would also not interfer because again, her body, her decision and I would support her and that child in that case. That's my belief structure when it comes to abortion and it has not changed since I was 18 years old when I told myself I would never interfer with a womans decision to give birth or abort a pregnancy.

BTW Kyo, all my games I play female characters... just something about the female gender makes game play so much better... oh yea I'm a guy that's why!

Watari, that's logical reasoning. But well sex is becoming more irresponsible. Those who do have children, like me. Would hate to hear the death of an unborn child. But you're right her body her choice. But it's your little person there. I believe that foster parents are wonderful. And those who adopt are just amazing. But we wouldn't have to get a substitute parent.

I don't know how we can fix this issue. And I don't think it'll ever stop even if it does get illegalized or such things.

No I completely understand, there are many sides to 1 issue and people see things differently, logically, morally, it's all different for each individual, that's why we have our views and opinions to rely on. No one single person is absolute in their logic and reasoning when it comes decision making because their is no correct way of doing things because our free will gives us the option of choices and with those choices comes decisions and when we make a decision we believe it to be correct, to ourselves. Now to others our decision may look improper but again different situations call for different choices and decisons.

Now I hear sex is becoming irresponsible well.. that's your view, I think sex is finally becoming what it should be, natural, people aren't so afraid of sex any more and people actually accept sex as a norm and to me that's a good thing, sex should be like that imo, not shielded away and hidden like some forbidden jutsu, but rather out there for everyone to experience and enjoy, but that's just me and yes you should choose your partners carefully and be at least a tad responsible when it comes to sex but I think a majority are just being too overly cautious when it comes to sex.